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E36 - Not Joey

Curl Next Door Episode 36 - "Not Joey" Featuring Alecia May from CurlyCon

Hosts: Stephanie Podolak and Tamara Robbins Griffith.


[intro music]


Stephanie and Tamara: Curl Next Door!


[sound of doorbell]


Tamara: Hello everyone and welcome to Curl Next Door Podcast.


Stephanie: Hi everyone. I'm Stephanie Podolak.


Tamara: And I'm Tamara Robbins Griffith. And we are the podcast that aims to help you feel good about your hair, make things simplified, give you a little of curly hair context.


Stephanie: And have a little fun.


Tamara: and have fun.


Stephanie: Yeah. Thanks for listening.


Tamara: My hair right now is not so fun. I'm having a bit of a dilemma of trying all these different products at once, and I think I, I went down some rabbit holes of information and now I need to not try everything all at once.


Stephanie: Oh, what have you tried? What have you tried and what do you wanna prioritize?


Tamara: I've been reading a lot about, you know, the moisture and protein balance. Have you engaged in that conversation at all or...


Stephanie: Not yet. I mean, not really. I need to do deep dive on protein.


Tamara: Yeah. And also kind of clarifying and if, if you're over moisturizing, it's probably good to clarify and then if you clarify too much, it can dry out your hair. And I'm just a bit confused cuz my hair, I finally got a haircut. Yay. Went to see Joey, did what I needed to do.


Took the advice from Star r and you, I need to see a professional and stop hacking away at my own hair. So I got a really good haircut from Joey and he, I told him your story too about your bad haircut, and he was like, yeah, that's not what thinning shears are for!


Stephanie: Oh no. Oh my


Tamara: He just, I was like, Joey, can you think of a context where it does make sense to take out thinning shears for like a curly hair style? And he really couldn't. 


Stephanie: Oh. 


Tamara: I'm not a professional hairdresser. Right? But he was kind of made it sound like, well, you would use thinning shears to kind of add a bit of texture to someone who has straight hair, right?


Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. And for our listeners who missed that episode, we are talking about the worst haircut of my life when a junior stylist thinning sheared my entire head. And I'm still, gosh, I got it cut in June. It's been six months and it's still growing out. Yep.


Tamara: Yeah. Well, you know what, listen. I mean, we might say it's just hair, but sometimes if you use the wrong product or you get the wrong haircut, like it can take a long time. It is still only hair. However, it can take a long time to right the wrongs from kind of doing the wrong thing and, and that's like my hair situation right now is kind of like a micro, micro issue of that, where it's kind of like, you know, am I just, have I gone in the wrong direction with some of the wrong products that are leaving it feeling a little bit kind of, I don't know, dried out, but also maybe over siliconed. I don't really know.


Stephanie: Yeah, and also the weather's not helping cuz it's colder out. It's drier out. So the texture changes and it's not just hair, it's your personal brand. So it is worth taking care of and spending some time with it. Can I just tell you a very funny Joey story? So, Jo Joey is Tamara's hairstylist. I was at an event, uh, about a month ago and we are celebrating a really great honour for a friend of mine and she had quite a few people together to celebrate.


And this guy walks in and he looks kind of rock and roll. And I didn't know who he was, so I went up and introduced myself and learned that his name was Joey and that he's a hairstylist, and I got so excited thinking that it was Tamara's hairstylist, Joey, and I even said to him, Wow, that's great. I've always wanted to meet you.


You cut my podcast partner and friend's hair Tamara Robbins Griffith. And he said, oh yeah, yeah, no, I totally know who that is. And I said, yeah, we're podcast partners. I'm sure she's talked to you about the podcast. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I know all about it. And so by the end of the night I corner him...


Tamara: You are best friends with him,


Stephanie: I hung out with the guy all night cuz he was so fun.


And I did a, I did a selfie and I sent it to Tamara and she said to me, Am I supposed to know who that is? So I was misled or there was a massive miscommunication. This is not the Joey we were looking for.


Tamara: Seriously. I was trying to figure it out in my head cuz like, well, did he say he knows me? Like, does he have another client named Tamara? How did you get so far down the road of thinking he was the same person? Anyway, that, that is pretty funny. 


Stephanie: Yeah, it was just a build. I think with hindsight maybe I wasn't super clear and he said, yes, I know Tamara, maybe he has a different client named Tamara.


Tamara: Yeah, I'm not the only Tamara in the world, certainly. 


Stephanie: Oh my goodness. It was just too, it's too funny.


Tamara: One other aside, because this might be a thing that people, that resonates with people. Because like if I've been feeling like my hair's kind of dry and whatever, could be because I was traveling and I was up in the mountains, you know, like, uh, for those who know Canada, I was at out west in B.C. I was in Kelowna, and apparently it is because that you're at a higher altitude.


It's like the air is so dry, like even when there's snow everywhere. So you think of it as precipitation. I think it's very hard to do outdoor gardening there, even in the summer. And they were saying like, if they have wet things, they dry like instantly. I don't know if that's the case in the winter too, but, you know, we were in Kelowna and then up in the mountains near Kelowna, and so that might be a thing too.


Like, I, I know we've talked about climate and where there's more humidity, but I wonder if that weather and climate had an impact on my hair? 


Stephanie: It did. And the water and the water.


Tamara: Mm-hmm.


Stephanie: Yeah, for sure it did. And your hair, it has memories. It's, it's still recovering. It does!


Tamara: The hair is like, boy, that vacation did a number on me.


Stephanie: Yeah, I think. I think so. 


Tamara: Oh, okay. We need to tell our listeners about our new Patreon.


Stephanie: Oh yeah. So if you're looking for a Christmas gift to give


Tamara: to give us


Stephanie: to give us.


Tamara: Listen, if you enjoy the podcast and you want to help support us and you want to do something nice in 2023, you can donate on our Patreon and you can find an easy link to it at our website, 




Tamara: and you know, it doesn't have to be much. A s a small donation is really helpful.


And you know what? No pressure if you, you know, we know times are, times are tight. Cheese is expensive, right Steph? 


Stephanie: Cheese is very expensive right now, as is all food.


Tamara: Yeah. But, if you have the ability to give and you enjoy this podcast, that's an option for you. And also if you just wanna listen and enjoy, that's okay too.


Stephanie: Yeah. And just so you know where that money's being used, we have expenses tied to this podcast. There's some production expenses and some vendors that we pay for, and it would just help cover the costs.


Tamara: Woo. So that's a thing now. Uh, we will link to it in our socials too. 


We have a very exciting guest today. So many things. You may or may not know her. It's gonna be a great interview. And then Steph, we also have had some beautiful, a beautiful VIP kit of hair product that was sent to us that we've been meaning to test out for a while. And finally had the chance to, unbox it and, uh, try some of these products. So...


Stephanie: Yeah, so we're very grateful to Rizos Curls, who sent us a beautiful VIP kit of a wonderful range of products. We were sent a shampoo, a detangling spray, a gel, a curl defining cream, a scalp scrub, nourish oil, hair repair mask, and...


Tamara: And


Stephanie: A scalp massage brush. Yes.


Tamara: So all of these products are part of a limited edition VIP box called Amor A Los Rizos, and that is between Rizos Curls and Thalia. So she is a Mexican pop star with beautiful, gorgeous flowing wavy hair. Yeah, it was really f it was like super fun to unbox. She's super cute and very popular.


She's known as the Queen of Latin Pop, and she's a Mexican singer and actress, one of the most successful and influential Mexican artists. So she's got her collab going. And so we tried out some of these products in this past week or so. And, and what do you think?


And the box is pretty impressive too. If you wanna order this, you can find it on their website.


Stephanie: Yes, and we have an unboxing video, which we'll post on social. 


Tamara: Mm-hmm.


Stephanie: how did it go? Yeah, so, okay, so I'll say first curb appeal is aces! It's a gorgeous looking collection. It really added a bit of juje to my curl shelf, so that was really pretty, I felt very happy when I looked at it.


And I would say also the scent is really, really nice. The ingredients they use are wonderful. And there's lots of really nice smelling things in here. For example, the the sculpts scrub is pink clay and peppermint and aloe vera, and the hair repair mask is grapefruit orange and murumuru butter. So everything smelled really good.


I always love when I try new product and it smells like I'm in a spa.


Tamara: Mm-hmm.


Stephanie: I, okay. So interesting thing thing for me, I'm not used to scalp scrubs. We've talked about this on the show before, like scalp treatment is still 


Tamara: done, we've done one from, did we try both? 


Stephanie: Amika.


Amika, yeah. So it's still, it's a product category that I'm still wrapping my head around.


So when I, funny story, when I tried it, I was expecting a, a repair person to come to the house, but not for another hour. So in my head I said, okay, this is great. I've got an hour. I'm gonna have a really indulgent shower and try all this product out cuz there's all the things. And I wanted to do the full line. And so I, I put. I, I do a, yeah, a spa morning. So I put the scalp scrub in and I'm massaging it in with the, massage brush, which is like this kind of rubbery pink brush with lots of sort of rubbery bristles on it, and it feels really great. And I put the scrub in and I'm like doing its thing and the doorbell rings and the repair guy showed up an hour early or like 56 minutes early.


And so now I'm panicking because I'm in the shower and buddy's here and I know he'll leave. So I had to like hair wrap my head with the stuff still in it. And I go open the door just like threw on whatever I could find, and I go open the door with my. My hair wrap


Tamara: Oh my God.


Stephanie: so it's sitting there doing its thing while I, anyway, let the guy in.


So it was a bit of a mad panic, but, um, yeah, so I'll be honest, jury's out on scalp scrubs for me. I'm just not sure. I found like it felt really nice to massage my head and as I said, I really liked the scent, but I found it really dried out my hair. It felt like it soaked up all the moisture and then when I washed it, it felt like straw.


So then I overcompensated by adding in more styling product to try to make up for the dryness. And then I tried the scalp scrub again, and I had the same experience. So I'm not sure, I'm not sure how they're supposed to work. I'm not sure if that's what's supposed to happen, but I would say I don't think it's for me.


Tamara: Yeah. And that's okay. And I think one of the things that I've been reading a lot, is like, it's about finding what's right for your hair. And sometimes people try a product and then feel like, oh, that didn't work, or, and it's like, well, that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.


It just means like maybe it's not doing what you need, because everyone's hair is very different, especially if we're talking about everything from a type two to a type three, to a type four, right? Like very different hair, different needs, you know?


Stephanie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And so then the other product, I tried them all. I also tried the Nourish oil.


Tamara: Yeah.


Stephanie: That was kind of fun cuz I always find when I do my hair routine, there's always a little bit of a frizz halo left.


And that's always the goal, like how to get rid of that frizz halo. And I've never been able to crack it and it never occurred to me to try an oil and so it didn't solve the problem completely, but it definitely helped reduce the frizz. So that was a good reminder to add an oil at the end of my hair routine.


Um, and it's, it's got sort of like a dropper function. Like you squeeze the top and it gets into the tube and then you put it in your hand and a little goes a long way.


Tamara: Yeah. I know some people like to put some on their hands before they kind of break the cast and scrunch the crunch out.


or especially on the ends, right?


Stephanie: Yeah, that's how, exactly how I was using it too. Cause my ends have been pretty dry so I think I'm gonna keep going and trying out the nourish oil and seeing how to best work it into my routine. I think the scalp scrub's off the list and over to you. Were there a couple standouts for you?


Tamara: Yeah, so I like the, uh, the wash, the hydrating shampoo. I thought that was a nice shampoo. I actually used some of the refresh and detangle spray on Amelia because, you know, I'm not overloading her waves with you know, a lot styling product. I mean, she's seven, but she does get a lot of tangles.


So whenever people send like a detangling spray, I'm like, I'm gonna try it on her. So on her, she and she asked to try the scrub, so I used the scrub on her. And it seemed fine. Like I did the scrub on her just for fun. And then we washed it out, gave her some regular shampoo, and then did the detangle spray.


That was all worked well for her. For me. I did the wash, which I enjoyed. I did the hair mask. The vitamin C hair repair mask, which I thought it was interesting the smell, cause it was kind of citrusy and I don't think that's usually the case in a hair product. Like we have a lot of other scents that are more common.


So, and it must be the grapefruit I guess. But it had the consistency and look of like icing. 


And then because of the citrus, it was like, this is like a lemon cake. And I kind of, it started, I, I almost wanted to eat it. That's how I was feeling in the shower. So liked that mask. And I did the define and hold, like I used the curl defining cream and the light hold gel.


So I did those and I had a good, it worked pretty well. Like, cuz I, I usually use like a bit of curl cream and then some kind of a gel that sort of, basic routine. And so, uh, it looked pretty good. And I had a couple of days and then I had, um, I had to do some more tv. So normally I don't wash my hair again after two days, but I did the next time.


I didn't use the hair mask, but I, something went wrong in my process and it didn't work out so well, the second time, but I also don't know if that's because I didn't condition enough or moisturize enough beforehand, or I used too much product, not enough product. My hair wasn't wet enough when I applied the product or randomly, and this is again, me trying too many different things at once.


I was like, oh, I just saw a bunch of videos instagram of like the flip sectioning method that you and I had talked about a while back, the Sophie Marie Curly one. I'm gonna try that, and I just think like, it didn't really work for me. The flip section method with these products or because my hair wasn't wet enough and then it looked fine but by day two it was just a nest, a tangled kind of sticky mess.


It's really hard to know what's, why they're, you're getting a result if you're doing a lot of different things at once.


Stephanie: Yeah, agreed. And as a reminder, we heard from, when we spoke with Michelle from Boucleme, she reminded us. That you shouldn't give up on a new hair line after one time. Give it a few go's, give it a couple weeks. Cuz I, like I said earlier, I think hair has memory and so I think like, I, I tried to use it several times in a row,


Tamara: Yeah. 


Stephanie: the lines so that I could ha wrap my head around it.


Um, so yeah, maybe give it another couple tries...


Tamara: I will, I will. I was doing the flip section method for the first time and also I had just come back from being away somewhere in the mountains with zero moisture in the air. You know, so there's a lot of variables, right? And, and I do think that, you know, the product smelled nice.


There were some definite winners that I really liked, and we'll absolutely keep trying and this is kind of the joy of it. And I, I'm still torn, like I love trying new things, so it's funny because even if I did land on like the perfect recipe for like my hair that was gonna give me good results every time, I still think I'd always want to be trying something new 


Stephanie: For sure. Yeah, definitely. Cuz maybe you'll find something better.


Tamara: It's like we can live out all these things with our hair that maybe you don't wanna try in your life. Like maybe you don't wanna blow up your career or your relationship to always be trying something new,


Stephanie: Yeah, 


Tamara: but you can do that with your kind of fashion and beauty routines.


Stephanie: for sure. And this scalp scrub, I'm just realizing is really skincare. I'm gonna try it on my body.


Tamara: Oh yeah. Try it on your body. And it's, it is skincare. It's skincare for your scalp. And I think, you know, it's, it's probably just tricky to, um, you have to apply that kind of thing in a way that you're getting it on your scalp. And yes, some of it's gonna get on your hair, but you're not kind of saturating your whole head of hair with it.


Stephanie: Yeah. Which for me is an impossible task to just sort of keep it on the part lines and not get it in my hair, like, Good luck.


Tamara: yeah, you're gonna get it in your hair, but it's just a question of how much, and then maybe after that, you know it's important which shampoo and conditioner you use too.


Stephanie: Very true. Very true. Well, thanks again, Rizos for this great line, this beautiful line. And uh, as Tamara mentioned earlier, we're really excited about our guest today. We have Alecia May from CurlyCon. Last year she launched CurlyCon during Covid. It was a virtual event for all things Curly and she's relaunching it next year in real life. We're really excited to have her on today. She's a ton of fun. 


Tamara: She's like a top 40, under 40 event strategist. And she, she's done some really interesting live virtual and hybrid events. And I think she's a really interesting person with a, with an interesting career and she kind of saw some of what we've seen in the past five years with kind of a, a movement toward more acceptance of different hair textures across the board and she said, how can we bring people together to kind of share information. So... 


Stephanie: So here we go. Welcome Alecia. 


[sound of doorbell]



Tamara Robbins Griffith: Hi. We're so excited today to be joined by Alecia May, Creator of Curly Con. The first, I think, the first ever curly haired conference?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Totally - let's go with that. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah, let's go with that. I had not heard of anything before this happened and I don't know Steph. I'll just like, I think that this popped up on our radar and we're like, what?


Cuz obviously everything we connect on for Curl Next Door Podcast is various aspects of the, the curly haired community and, and industry as a whole. And it's like, this is so exciting. We need to, we need to go, we need to find out more. We need to talk to the creator. All those things. So, So we, anyway, we did attend your last event. We're so happy to have you here today to tell us what's in store and kind of a little background on yourself.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yeah I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much.


Stephanie Podolak: So tell us a little bit about yourself and CurlyCon, when's the event? All the details.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yeah. So, I, my background is events, so I'm an event strategist and I love creating events. That's my job. That's what I wake up to do every day. Um, so my background is events and marketing and understanding the concept and the strategy behind events. So when I combine my job, which is my passion as my curly hair, which is also a passion. It just kind of formulated CurlyCon and it was really born in the Covid era. I think a lot of people have these weird hobbies and things come up from it. And so, um, you know, maybe not bored, but I was looking at some curly hair education and I was looking for that and I could, you know, I could find a lot of YouTubers and you know, I know a lot of YouTubers back in, you know, early 2000's, did a lot of curly hair blogs and whatnot.


But I didn't find an event that was really suited for what I wanted it to be, which is an all-inclusive, curly, kinky, coily... I don't care what kind of hair you have, you could have straight hair and still learn something, across all ethnicities and really just be kind of the embodiment of curly, textured hair.


So that was my plan during Covid and, and next year, we're hosting it in April, 2023 in Toronto. So it's a live experience and I'm super excited for this live experience because last year we did it digitally, right? We did it virtual.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: But very smoothly, I might add.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Thank you. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I think a lot of people had to, you know, in your industry, had to pivot to virtual events and that's, that's not an easy thing to do from the, the tech standpoint alone, but it really smoothed to kind of jump from these digital rooms.


I think it's super awesome that we can go in person and then will people be able to still, like, cuz you had people from all over the world attending, so will they still attend virtually if...


Alecia May - CurlyCon: yeah, so next year is, is the same thing. Well, we are gonna do a virtual component because we did have a very global audience, which I wasn't truly expecting because, I live in Canada and so people think we, we need to be a Canadian type of event. But we had a very worldwide international crowd joining in from India and Africa and Australia. So, all the continents, um, maybe not Antarctica, , all the continents of the world.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Oh shame you. Did. You need to get more, uh, engagement from the Antarctic curly haired market.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: We gotta find somebody. Actually there's a TikToker but that's a whole other conversation. So, it was, it was really great. And this year I think as an event strategist, and as an event producer, it's important to have a hybrid element because accessibility, you know, carbon footprint, I mean, I can go on and on, but also if people don't wanna travel and they're, you know, I like my own little room too and I don't wanna travel sometimes.


So it's always good to have that option. Really, you're missing out if you don't do a hybrid event. In my opinion.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah. That's awesome. And um, what was your biggest surprise though in holding the first CurlyCon? Like, was there anything that you didn't expect that, that you, that happened that went down like a takeaway that was a surprise?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I think the biggest takeaway was I forgot how much work events were, and I say that because I do events for clients and for me it's, you know, I go through the motions and it is, but when it's your own event and you have so much riding on it, I forgot how high my own expectations were and I forgot how crazy I get when it's something that I'm personally doing.


So that was my, you know, my expectations were really high. And as soon as I started looking at sponsors, um, I was surprised at how many said yes, even though I do sponsorships on a daily. I just didn't know how much this community needed, this type of event. So it was a good surprise. Bad surprise? I think by the end I was stressed out because, you know, you're trying to get all these people in the same room. You know, some things, like you said, out of your control in a virtual environment, and I wish I had a magic button to transport myself to everyone's home to help them diagnose things.


But, um, you know, all in all, I think it was a great event and definitely surprises, but more good than bad, that's for sure.


Stephanie Podolak: That sounds so great. And so as you're planning for the 2023 event, is there anything that you wanna tell our listeners about what's in store or any special guests or any surprises that you've got planned? Fill us in!


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Oh, do I wanna spill the beans, is what you're asking me? So


Tamara Robbins Griffith: You could spill like a couple beans and then I know you're gonna have more beans as it gets closer because, yeah, it's still a ways away, but your tickets are on sale now.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yes, they are on sale. We did a great early bird. Um, so we have a great first look. So I would say, you know, expect to be entertained and expect to have the experience of a lifetime. So I'll give you one bean, I'll, I'll do one bean. So as you walk in, you'll be gonna be greeted by entertainers.


I'm not gonna say who and what and where, but you're gonna be greeted and you're gonna get little affirmations so that you feel amazing when you walk into the event. Because I notice when you go to events sometimes, I don't know about you. Where do I go? How do I do this? What do I, you know, how do I, where's my jacket go?


What do I say? What do I do? So, um, that's gonna help ease your kind of, your entry and your experience at the event. And then there's gonna be a lot of fun Instagrammable moments, um, with products and brands and, and it's very much about experience and you, you know, the branding and, and feeling good about the event and yourself.


Stephanie Podolak: That sounds so exciting, especially since last year you were a virtual. It sounds like you've invested a lot of creativity and this feels like a really fresh way to launch an event.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I think so. I love creative events, um, and I love branding. I wanna take my picture on a swing , you know, I wanna take picture of, you know, a fun little 360 that we can showcase on TikTok. Why not? So for me, brainstorming was, it took me about three months of brainstorming after the first event to really think about what do I want to tap and what's my plan and what's my goal for the audience because that's who matters, not me. You know the audiences matter.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: What does the makeup of your audience look like?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: It's a great mix. Definitely there's, I would say about 30% of content creators. Sometimes maybe like 35%. It didn't include stylists in that because we did have a big surge of stylist attending, which I wasn't expecting either, uh, because it was for the curly hair consumer.


But a lot of stylists have asked me for a specific track on just curly hair, education for the stylist and for the salon. And that is something that we are gonna be doing, but not crazy this year, maybe next year, 2024. But, there's a great mix of everyone and anyone combined. So that was, that was also maybe a good surprise that I didn't mention


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah, and sounds like there's a lot great key learnings you've made and also ways that you're gonna, grow it bigger and more exciting and in person for next year. And you've only done it once, like that sounds amazing. Like, it seemed like a real success for a first time. 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: You know, the first year events are really interesting, even when I plan them for clients because. You know, expectations. Like, you know, I went through myself as a client journey here because it was my event. I'm like, Oh, this is what a client feels like. You know? And that's a great experience too. You forget how much stress and pressure it is, but also, expectations and sponsorships and you know, all of the key tracks and, you know, how am I gonna make this successful? Really, you know, you take those learnings and you apply them to next year, and I'm always learning anyway, like as an event producer, I'm not perfect and nothing is gonna be perfect. So, um, but yeah, I can't wait to see the evolution. I've got ideas for 2024, 2025. They're in my little notebook. You always have to think ahead of how to get that experience to the next level and what the people want.


And so, you know, I ask them, Hey, what do you guys want? What do you wanna see? What do you wanna, And people have great ideas, and there's also some, fun ideas that I probably wouldn't implement, but maybe, maybe in the future. Who knows?


Stephanie Podolak: Yeah. How is the reception on it? And I, this sort of ties to another question, which is why now, and I know you mentioned it was a labour of love during Covid, but you know, we talk a lot on the show about the timing and how it's a really interesting time in society where women are embracing their natural hair.


And we're seeing this trend become more and more inclusive. And so the timing of your event feels really great because it's an event for women of all curl types or women and men of with all curl types. And so yeah, I just sort of wanted to get your perspective on why now and, and your feelings and point of view on this trend towards the natural hair movement.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: It's a great question, and I don't know if you if you did this, but when I was in early 2000s, I used to straighten my hair every chance I got because I, Yeah, hands up, right? Probably everyone on the call and I used to deal with like an iron


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Remember we used to like, Hey, can you straighten my hair? And so, in a world where we almost idolized straight hair. We used to, not anymore, but we so long straight. And that kind of shiny, flowy hair was really the epitome of beauty almost. Right? Because I wanted to be, Oh, I want straight hair. Be beautiful. It's been this kind of back and forth for decades.


You saw like early 2000's magazines and they're all straight hair. But now we've widened those kind of narrow standards, if you will. So it's really important to, I think as we go and as we grow into this kind of community of natural hair, it's really.


Encouraging us to feel confident, right? And to feel and to celebrate our natural curls no matter what the state, You know, I, I have to stop apologizing for my hair when it's up because I'm like, Oh, my hair's up. No, it's wash day. Wait a second, nevermind. It's my natural hair. And it's just, it's just women.


I think women in general have to start appreciating and, and understanding that, you know, this is what we're born with, so, let's continue to feel and embrace no matter what state. And, and one of my speakers last year, Lisa, she is out of Miami. Um, she says, I love my hair. I don't care if it's rained on, if there's humidity, it doesn't matter.


It's all, and she was sloughing up her hair. She's like, It's beautiful. It's, you know, it might be ugly, but it's beautiful. I love it. I love it. And so her words really stuck with me and, and that kind. Making sure to celebrate it every day and allowed us to be true to ourselves, connect to our, you know, roots, whatever they may be.


Right? And just not to be shamed because women, we always face a lot of shame, I think, in, in, you know, makeup and beauty and standards. And so this is just one way to celebrate all of the things that we go through for curly hair, textured hair.


Stephanie Podolak: I love that. And um, we wanted to ask you about your curly hair journey. You mentioned you used to flat iron and iron your hair quite a bit, but what was the tipping point for you to go from that point to loving and embracing your own hair?

Alecia May - CurlyCon: I bleached my hair since I was 19 years old and I'm, it's been so 20, 20 years. I'm showing my age, but it's okay. So 20 years of bleaching my hair every three to six months, let's say. And so my curls just became, and I have the type of hair that can't, I mean, I, I think a lot of people can't endure that, but it was, gotten to the point where it was stringy and flat and frizzy, and there was no curl pattern.


And I have pictures and. What does my hair become? And so that for me was the tipping point in the curl journey because nothing would work anymore. None of my styling products, nothing worked. And I thought, Okay, this is, this is not my hair. I don't know whose hair this is, but it's not mine. And so when I started to really do the work, put in the prep, repair, damage, my curls came back like tenfold.


I went from stringy frizzy, almost straight hair to having the curls back. And I was, you know, I was just kind of, during Covid, it was more to the point of I wasn't doing anything because, you know, events had shut down for a little bit, you know, the first three months no one was doing anything. So I really took the time and effort and energy.


But tipping point was that bleach,


Tamara Robbins Griffith: So, And did you stopped. You stopped


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I stopped. I stopped bleaching. I have, I'm two years without bleach. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Wow. I think 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: that was like addiction.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: it's, it is, it is. Cuz I'm still there. I mean, I don't bleach my whole head, but I have highlights and it's really hard for me to like, walk away from that and as a counter,


as a counterpoint. . You know, I, I try so hard to take care of it and get regular trims and not do heat styling anymore.


Cuz at one point my hair was bleached and keratin and chemical straightening and heat styling all the things at once. Right. So anyway, it's, it's tough. 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: But I find is there a way to like bleach your hair or have some colour in it that it doesn't damage your hair to that effect. Because I love the, I like the look of bleach. I really do. But


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah, I mean we've, we actually talked, didn't we talk to Tammie Axworthy, the hairstylist on the podcast about bleach Steph? And, and to some extent, some of the feedback we've heard, and from my own colorist is the quality of the product and how it's applied does make a difference. So, you know, if it's a higher quality, perhaps bleach, it's not being maybe left on longer than necessary.


For me, it's highlights, so it's not all over. I mean, maybe that can help make a difference. 


What I was gonna ask is when you decided to kind of pivot and you're like, I really need to take care of my hair and change up this routine, where did you go for your information? Were there any particular influencers? Was it YouTube? Was it Instagram? Was it a blog? You know,


Alecia May - CurlyCon: It was a combination of written blogs and a YouTube channel and really it was a combination of a few different YouTube channels because everyone has different hair and maybe, that person, you know, didn't really, her hair wasn't as, as curly as mine or vice versa.


So, um, I read a lot of blogs. I read a lot of science. I read a lot of boring articles on hair and where you know, what it actually was. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm learning so many things. But most of it was repairing damage at that point. And so I like googled literally how to repair curly hair, blonde bleach, damage, and so, I think I went through like 20 or 40 Google pages of, of just reading and understanding.


But I like to get to the science behind it myself, and just to understand how hair works and what, what doesn't. And I always remembered asking my, my stylist, well not my ex stylist now, why isn't my hair going curly? And she never really could tell me, Oh, you know, and she never had an answer. And it's like, well, because she knows the bleach is hurting it.


She had an answer, but she wasn't telling me. But definitely YouTubers and just a variety of them and just try picking out what worked. And it was a lot of trial and error, as you know. Right. At the end of the day, it's like , you have to try it and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Move on, move on.


Stephanie Podolak: Totally. And so what's your hair routine now?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: So my hair routine now is I like to do a deep conditioner, um, and then a protein treatment every other week. Um, so I kind of really mix those masks up, but I do use sulfate free. Right now. I'm using Lus brands and, and that for me works right now. Very pleasantly surprised because a couple years ago they know this because I talked to them.


So it's it's public knowledge, but it didn't work for me. It was terrible. I. This is terrible. Um, I love also Curl Keeper. Huge fan. They're they're a sponsor of Yes. Thumbs up 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: We're fans too. I think it's a classic.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Curl Keeper and Jonathan Torch. That's, who's he? He does my hair. Huge. Yes. Yes. He's a big sponsor of our event and so, shout out to Curl Keeper


Tamara Robbins Griffith: yeah.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: but you know, their products, um, they're, they're gel anyway, is, is where my, the styling dreams are made of.


So I currently use shampoo & conditioner from Lus, a deep conditioner from Lus.. Sometimes I'll do a Bounce Curl treatment. And then sometimes I'll use Curlsmith, especially in the winter, a scalp treatment because it's, you know, how it gets really dry and cold here in Canada. And then of course Curl Keeper all the way for styling and their brush is fantastic.


The brush is like what dreams are made of


Stephanie Podolak: Yeah, the, the flat brush,


Alecia May - CurlyCon: all of their brushes, all of them. So they have a styling br. They have one that you can like kind of sweep up, right, and do the volume, and then they have a de-tangling and then they have a flat brush.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I want the detangling is the one you can use in the shower, right?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yes. Oh


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I just put it on my gift list for Christmas. Edward, if you're listening I totally did put that brush on my list.




Alecia May - CurlyCon: Or you can come to CurlyCon because 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yes. It may or may not be in a gift bag.


We'll, we'll be there. We'll, we'll be there. Listen, I mean, your, your whole event, the whole vibe of it, the inclusivity, the positivity. All of that is sort of like an in-person event embodiment of like how Steph and I, I think feel about curls and why we started the podcast. It's like a celebration of the people and the beauty of curls and natural hair and just feeling good about yourself and being inclusive and respecting others and, you know, all of that. So, I mean, it's, and then of course, getting into the science of it and just wanting to hear about the latest product and try a new technique and all in an effort to, you know, not be perfect, but just have fun. 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I love that. Yes. Love that.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: So did you, what did you learn? Did you learn any new tricks at the last CurlyCon where you were like, I'm gonna do this with my hair now?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Well, Merian from Bounce Curl unveiled this new technique and so that was really interesting for me. I also learned from Dyson about the science of heat, which sounds really maybe boring , but learning and listening to, uh, the engineer and learning about how it's different.


I'm actually in the market now. I didn't throw out my hair dryer after the event, but I was using just a plain old, hair dryer from, I don't even know when, but with a diffuser. And now I'm actually in the market to buy a new hair dryer and I'm gonna see what it looks like because I, you know, I like.


Unfortunately, my heat, my hair is so long and thick that I need to, I need to do that. But there is a lot of great new techniques, that Merian from Bounce Curl. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Okay. Good one.


Stephanie Podolak: And were the techniques about how to apply the product or can you expand on any of that?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yeah, absolutely. So it was more about how you apply the product and how to style the product. Um, so the sectioning was a lot different. You know how sometimes you just take the kind of crown and you just kind of section it off? She did like different sections and she did it strategically versus like, This way.


She did half of the head and then I think she did the other half of the head, which was interesting because it helped more define the curls. Um, but you have to watch her cuz she did on a mannequin. It was really really interesting. I did it one time and then I forgot, but it worked. It worked.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I'm interested in this cuz I do section, like basically the whole crown and then the sides in the back. And I had a YouTube video that I followed a while back and I, that's like my routine and I'm sort of an old dog. It's hard to when I get like used to something and it sort of works hard to, um, break out of it.


But I do wanna see other sectioning techniques. So where can we download it? Did we have to download it at the time?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: So I will give you access. I will give you access, no problem. But if you are a VIP holder from last year, you have access for the entire year. But I'll give you access because it's really interesting the way she sectioned her hair. Cuz like I said, you know every section from crown to, you know, all the way up.


But she did it differently and it was. Yeah. Yeah. Different direction. And she said, You can brush the hair however you want. I'm like, Oh, that's different. That's new to me. Cuz it went against everything that I saw on YouTube. Right. Or or content creators. But you have to remember though, content creators are doing it.


What works in their hair versus the general public. So,


Tamara Robbins Griffith: That's a good point. That's a good point. But I do think there's something about you know, so many of these different techniques we've, we talked recently about, about plopping and we've talked about, you know, water and all these things and scrunching the crunch out and squishing to condition all these things.


But like I think sectioning is really important cuz kind of how you section it sort of stays in that pattern you do, you know...


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Have you heard of the flip method where you flip your hair in a bowl, The bowl method, that that really does not work on my hair. Like I flip it up and I've got frizz and that's all it is, is wet frizz. But if I do it a different way, that may not sectioning, but it's the technique. It just, I, I look like a wet frizzy rat.


Like, I'm sorry, but I just, just doesn't work for me. And so, um, you know, the way that I section it now, and I've done it, you know, this way, and I've done it crown, and I've done it, you know, side by side head. It's just what, what works for you, I think, and how much you decide an effort to put into your styling routine too. Some days I'm like, I, I don't wanna do it.


Stephanie Podolak: That's so true. And we often talk about how this is just a learning journey forever and even something that worked yesterday won't work tomorrow!


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Right. That's so true. It is. So I'm like, we worked yesterday, worked last week, and now it's just not, I don't know what's happening.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: There's too many variables. The weather, your age, your hormones, your haircut, the water, the humidity...


Alecia May - CurlyCon: A hundred percent. And the water, actually I wanted to say the water really, I have well water at home, so it comes from a well and you know, the well water, not a very good, good look for curly hair. So I have to make sure I put a softener in my, or like at least a breaks down. But that really contributed to my the ratty hair that I used to be like, Why is my hair so feel like straw? And so that was a big factor to, to when I switched over in Covid World, I'm like, Oh, the water has something to do with it. I had no idea mean I did, but


Stephanie Podolak: Yeah, totally. So just on another note, we'd love to hear from you on who else is influencing you right now.


Who do you have your eye on? Celebrities, content creators, anyone like that that you wanna share with us?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Oh, wow. So many! Of course I love Barbara from Curl Vitality. She, she's a huge TikToker. She's gonna be part of my event in a big way next year. So she's always one that I go to for advice and, and we know we have our Curl Talk sometimes. I found actually a new person on instagram, her name is Wanda Mulzak she's really, I love the way she does her curly hair... And then of course we have Gal's, curly hair, wavy hair.


Um, she's in Ottawa. She's coming to Curly Con and I'm, I actually watch her lives, shout out to Gal on Tuesdays at 12. Um, I think she does like a, cross, uh, between, Instagram and, and TikTok.


So she's really cool to watch. And her bowl method definitely works for her. Doesn't work for me. There's so many that I find on a daily basis. They're always popping up new people and new, you know, ways. But I'm trying to find more that really resonate with a CurlyCon kind of vibe that I can invite and, you know, hopefully they, they love it


Tamara Robbins Griffith: It's, I bet they will. They'll, they'll come on board. So I think we know the line sort of between beauty, politics, racism, feminism, it overlaps and then we talk about inclusion and a lot of the topics around curly hair involve issues like serious issues, not just hair styling. And one of the things that is, is so fascinating about this community.


How do you think your event, like what role does your event play in perhaps bringing about positive change?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I think the event really, goes about positive change because I make it be about positive change. Like we, really map out different scenarios of keynotes and panels. Like, uh, last year we had a panel on Black women in society and culture, and we talked about discrimination that they faced.


And, you know, one of, I, I heard about this one person who actually did not get the job of her dreams because of her natural hair texture and the way it looked to the employer that it wasn't professional enough. So we bring up these issues in our various panels, in our various talks, and we make it known that we are talking about it and we are trying to make a change about it in some way.


And so, and even educating others because, Before I was like, Oh, this is a thing. I didn't know this as a White woman. I didn't know this was a thing. Maybe a little bit, but not to the extent of maybe the Black community or the BIPOC community. So for me was really important because I have friends and I didn't know what they were going through.


Maybe they didn't know what I was going through. So kind of cross education is really important, making it known and really just allow ourselves to have the conversation between races between our industry itself. At the end of the day, right? We wanna make sure that we have a space where we feel safe to talk about it and not discriminated because everyone else is doing that behind, you know, employers doors and whatnot.


Um, and we want to understand that we kind of capture that conversation, in a great way to, to shine more light and to maybe make positive changes. One of our media, publications that came Fashion and InStyle last year, or last event at CurlyCon, they did a piece about it as well because they're really interested in kind of the movement that's coming about as we make changes, as we make headway for everybody in texture community.


So I think, you know, that's the way we're shaping it up and hopefully we, we continue grow and having, you know, better, bigger conversations about it, right? We're making some noise, making a splash.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I think it's, it's so great that you're doing that and not glossing over it and, and not just acting like, White women are the center of the curly haired universe because, you know, there's, there's so many of us and, as you mentioned, you know, we feel like we had to straighten our hair and we didn't fit the beauty ideals.


And I think all these, a lot of feelings that I think White women have about their curls, It's almost just the, the bipo community. It's like, and then tenfold 


and then, and then all these other layers on top of that. Right.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Well in the, I mean in the BIPOC community, I think early history suggested that when they were in like a lot of, in the Black community, they were enslaved. It was like part of this where they had to shave their head because it was seen as a certain view. But it was, you know, you get into the history of things and it's really interesting and I always recommend everyone to go educate and to see where all of us as a civilization, not just one race or another.


It's not about that, but it's also. Kinda coming together. And, so to me it's super important and it's important for everyone to learn and grow no matter what, where you came from or who you are. So yeah, it's a big goal. It's a big goal for CurlyCon for sure.


Stephanie Podolak: Yeah. It's so great though. Is there anything else that we haven't asked that you wanna tell us about yourself or the event?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Definitely if you are listening, you have curly hair and you have wavy hair, coily, whatever, whatever hair it is, I, I hope you come to learn about curly Con, make a decision if it's right for you. But definitely it's a place where we're gonna celebrate you. We're gonna celebrate your curls.


I care about every single person that walks in that door. I have a personal vested interest in, you know, I packaged every single VIP box myself last year with Care and Love. So we try to do as, as best as possible to make your experience, like, you feel great when you walk in and you feel great when you leave that door.


And all of our speakers are hand selected and really, you know, taking into, again, the goal of the the event which I mentioned. So, you know, take, take a chance. Come on out April 15-16 next year and I really hope to see you there. And if you can't join us, wherever you are in the world, there's a virtual option as well.


So, you know, feel free to, uh, to ping me on Instagram too. I'm on CurlyCon 2023 and I always watch my stories, so.


Stephanie Podolak: And how does the audience buy tickets?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Oh, you can go to, And you know, there was fun. It was funny cuz some people are like, well, I did a live couple weeks ago when we launched tickets on, uh, on Instagram and like, I wish I could come. And I said, Oh, where, where are you located? I'm in New York. I said, Well, there is such thing as a train or there is such thing as an airplane.


So. She's like, Oh, I guess you're right. And she ended up buying a VIP ticket after so, if you are looking to make a change, meet some people. I mean, this is a place where you're meeting the whole community, not just one person, but like content creators and you know, global. And actually, I maybe can drop this.


Maybe I'll give you another bean. I don't if I... 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: One bean. One bean. 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: um, we actually have, I don't know if you know her, her name is Nubia Rezo. She's from


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah, we know 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: yeah. She's gonna be a speaker at my event. So she is amazing in the industry. She was part of our panel last year and she came on literally like the night before. I don't know if I should telling you this, but she's like, I wanna be part of it.


So this year she'll be part of it in a big way. She'll be a speaker. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Nubia is one of the first people we interviewed when we started, uh, incorporating guests onto the podcast. And we love her. She is so, her message is so positive and she's so full of love and she just, the imagery she painted in my mind about curls being like a garden of flowers.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Oh wow. That's fantastic. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I can't even, like, I love this woman, so it'll be super fun to see her.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Among others. But I won't, I won't spill any more beans.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Oh, we know you're gonna have some amazing guests. So thank you so much for joining us, Alecia, and we will definitely keep tabs on any news, new announcements you're making. We can reshare them on our socials as well.


And keep our listeners up to date on, any little beans, any trail crumbs that you leave with exciting news as we lead up in the winter and spring, getting closer to the event.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I really appreciate that. Thank you so much ladies.


Stephanie Podolak: Thank you, but before we let you go, we always like to do like a speed round, so we're gonna ask you some questions and you have to answer with the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Okay, I may, I might be ready.


Stephanie Podolak: All right. First one, Who is your favorite curly haired celebrity, and why?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Ooh. Tory Kelly. 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Oh yes, Tori Kelly. She was in my Facebook today when I was doing something for the podcast cuz we. I think Tori Kelly has a, um, this is not rapid fire at all. This is tangential, but she has a kids book, right?


And we talked about it in an episode of the podcast. Super cute and,


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Curly. The curly girl blues. The Curly Girl Blues. That's it. 


Tamara: Oh, okay. 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: She's all about curly hair. Yeah. Okay.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Right. I know, I know. Okay. Another question for you. If you were stranded on a desert island and you could only bring one curly haired product, what would it be?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Definitely it would be the Curl Keeper gel. Because I need that gel like, yeah, it has to be the Curl Keeper original Liquid Gel Styler, a hundred percent. 


Stephanie Podolak: You are speaking to my heart right now. I have to tell you. It's so funny. I've been using Curl Keeper exclusively for decades. Okay. And it was a game changer in my life. And since Tamara and I have been doing this podcast, we've been privileged to have several product samples sent our way. And no matter what, I always use the Curl Keeper like as a base no matter what we try, cuz I'm so scared to not use.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yeah, I 


Stephanie Podolak: it's such a, it's such a commitment to do a wash day and like what if, what if I don't use it and then my hair turns into a frizz ball? So anyway, I feel you. It's always on my curl shelf too.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Always, always, always, always. And Jonathan knows how much I love his product. I'm like, Please


give me all 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: us to Jonathan. We're, we're like closet fans, but we haven't, We should have him on 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: you should have. He's amazing. He did a, he did a workshop, so yeah. Okay. I'm


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Sold. 




Alecia May - CurlyCon: Yeah. Fantastic guy.


Stephanie Podolak: What is your favorite hair accessory?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Oh, I like my clips. I love my clips. I know it's not really, you know, sexy or anything, but my clip is like my go-to and I love my clip and I just


Tamara Robbins Griffith: What, what type of clips?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: so my big claw clip at the back, so I do half a up, down with my little, you know, clip there and then hair falling down. I do sometimes little small clip like pigtail clips and so clips, clips, clips all the way.


I, I want to like, hair bands, but I'm not there yet mentally.


Stephanie Podolak: Yep.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Me too! Wow. I to, Okay, so this is another totally aside, and then we'll, we'll let you get on with your day and we'll get on with our day. But, there's a wonderful woman. I have a, some great Facebook groups in my, in my neighborhood of closet edit and decor edit. The closet edit, there was a stylist in our Facebook group and she was going to full-time styling.


She was having a major blowout sale from her online business because she's moving on to full-time styling. She had these amazing claw clips and she was giving our Facebook group like a discount code. And last night at 11 o'clock at night, I'm buying all these gorgeous claw clips of like marbled, you know, like tortoise shell, but like different color combinations.


And I just like, if you can find something. I find because of the curls, even a smaller claw clip kind of can hold it in place. Like I don't need 10,000 bobby pins. It's one of the good things right, about not having straight hair that like even, Right.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I can't do bobby pins. Like, I'm sorry, I'm starting the whole conversation here, but I can't, like my hair is so, there's so much of ha like I don't, I have very high, high density hair. So like my braid is like this thick, but like bobby pin. That's why clips for me work because I can just, different sizes and, you know, I'm, I'm crazy about clips.


Buy me clip. I'm here for life.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: It's funny you should say that you love clips because I was shopping for them last night at like 11 o'clock at night and have 


Alecia May - CurlyCon: trying to get the sale.


Tamara Robbins Griffith: Yeah, like this discount code. And it like, these women were just like, going on mass to like snap up Jenny Bird jewelry, her hair clips, like our whole Facebook group sold out her entire inventory last night.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Invite me to your Facebook group so I shall know about these 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: I'll try, I'll try. Yeah. Um, Steph, any other rapid fire questions? 


Stephanie Podolak: One. Just one more and it's the last one. What would you tell your younger self about your hair?


Alecia May - CurlyCon: Oh gosh, this is not rapid fire at all. But I would say, you know, try to love your hair every day. Do a little affirmation in the mirror, because that helps as an adult, like, I love my hair, you know, that little girl in the mirror. I love myself, I love my day. Like, something like that. And, and, you know, just kind of say it out loud because the more you say at love, the more you believe it.


The more you believe it, the more you, you embrace it and the more confident you feel. So yes, that, that was rapid 


Stephanie Podolak: one. Yeah, good one. Uh, what a 


Tamara Robbins Griffith: That's a good note to end on.


Stephanie Podolak: It is what a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for being our guest today. It's so nice to see you and get to know about your hair journey and your wonderful event that's coming up. And uh, we'll be sure to promote it in our social channels.


Alecia May - CurlyCon: I so appreciate that. Thank you so much, ladies.


Tamara: Wow. Thank you, Alecia. That was amazing. If you guys don't have tickets, you have, you know, three or four months left to get your tickets. However, I'm sure the new year is gonna fly by. And it will be April before we know it. CurlyCon live in Toronto and also online. A two day event. This is gonna be super fun.


So you can buy your tickets now. 


Stephanie: Go grab your tickets at


Thanks Alecia May for joining us today and thanks everyone for tuning in.


Happy Holidays. Happy almost New Year.


Tamara: See you in the new year. With more fun hair adventures.


Stephanie: Well said. Bye.


Tamara: Bye.

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