E38 - Messy is Sexy

Curl Next Door Episode 38 - "Messy is Sexy" with Jonathan Torch from

the Curly Hair Institute.

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Hosts: Stephanie Podolak and Tamara Robbins Griffith.

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[intro music]

Stephanie and Tamara: Curl Next Door!

[sound of doorbell]

Tamara: Welcome to Curl Next Door Podcast

Stephanie: welcome to Curl Next Door Podcast with Tamara Robbins Griffith, me.

Tamara: Stephanie Podolak. That's not me. That's you. 

Stephanie: We have a really exciting episode for you today. We have one of my favourite hair stylists and curly hair product creators. Jonathan Torch from the Curly Hair Institute.

Tamara: Woo. Jonathan has just been around. If you're from Toronto or you know, maybe Canadian listeners in general who read Canadian publications will know, like he was a big curl guy on the scene when curls weren't as on trend back then. You know, there weren't as many curly-haired salons to choose from.

So he was an expert in this big, bustling metropolitan Canadian city. He was definitely, making waves.

Stephanie: Yeah, and uh, certainly his product was a huge hit. You'll hear all about it. It definitely had a huge impact on my life and my mother's life. She also has curls and it was especially important in a time when there wasn't a lot to choose from, so he really was revolutionary.

Tamara: Like, It's hard to think of a product that's been around as well for, you know, 20 years. This product may be 25 or 30 years old. That hasn't really changed the formulation, right.

As far as I know.

Stephanie: That's a great point. I mean, I've been using it for at least 15 years, and it's the same. 

Tamara: Yeah, it's interesting, like there wouldn't be that many products of its kind that have been around and had that staying power. So it's a testament to how many fans there are that keep buying it.

Stephanie: I hear you. So what's going on with your hair? Tell me you've, been trying some new things. Do you wanna

Tamara: Well, you know, I was wondering if I was doing too many things right? Like, as we do , this can happen. It's a, uh, a hazard of the trade. I was wondering if I'm using too many brushes and too many techniques and too many products. So I thought, okay, maybe my curl clumps are getting like maybe this, it's too separated.

And so I decided to stop using the brush for a while. Like I'm, I'm off the Denman brush for a little while, trying to separate my curl clumps with my fingers again, of in the shower when it's wet. Still needing a brush, I think, to get it to flow properly in my bangs. So a little bit of brush styling, but not the whole head.

And then, you know, really still experimenting with. the protein moisture balance. And I don't know. I mean, in, on that front, I think I have a ways to go and a lot to learn. And, uh, I mostly just really want to tell you that you told me about this traveling bin of curly-haired product in your neighborhood.

And started it. I did it. It's happening

Stephanie: Tell me about it. What are you doing

Tamara: Okay. So I put out a post in the local mostly moms Facebook group, but big. It's, I don't know, there's like 7,000 people in it. And a lot of people were interested. I was trying to like, temperature check, and so then I started a separate Facebook group for this.

It's called the wavy, curly, coily something, something like Curly East Toronto, curly community, something like that. and so I, I tried, I was adding the people who were interested into the group and then I went out and I bought this like little bin from the dollar store with handles and kind of big enough to probably put in, I don't know.

Like 12 bottles of shampoo and it's kind of deepish, so you could stack some of those jars. And I started it off with a bunch of stuff at at my place. And then one lady who didn't need more things just dropped a few things at my place. And then I, someone picked it up from me and someone else took it from her.

And now I have to get into the task of helping to administer the group a little bit because I think it's stalled. And I think people just get busy with their lives. So in order to kind of keep this going, you need to, um, moderate it a little bit or it a little bit. So I'm so glad that you totally inspired me.

I want our listeners to know that if they live somewhere where there's lots of people, chances are. People will be into this idea. I mean, harder in a rural setting. Of course, you know, I'm in a dense urban area, so there's, it's easy to kind of circulate something like this and then I have a bit of a mentor too, because there's a woman who started a no waste textile group and she's, I, I've been able to ask her some questions, but what she does is she puts all these people who are sharing the, the bag of textiles into a chat so that it's a lot easier for everybody to just kind of tag who's next and then you don't. You don't kind of sit on this bag for days and days and weeks because everyone's in the chat together.

So if you're being a slow poke, people are gonna know. So you just, you make your choices, you take what you want, you add some stuff, and then you say that you're ready to pass it on to the next person. So it's, it's interesting. It's, you know, In some ways, like a little small make work project, but I think it's super cool.

And I've been wanting to try the Innersense line for a while, and I did take a conditioning mask or deep conditioner, something from their line that was dropped at my house, uh, before I sent everything off on its merry way. And it, it created a little breathing room in my curl shelf, you know.

I'm tr trying to figure out how to prioritize, how to get through all these products and, and definitely there's that feeling, which I think we talked about already of like, oh, you know, I may not be right for my hair type, but I feel like I should use it up cuz I don't want it to be a waste. So hopefully good solution for that.

Stephanie: So I have questions. So did you set it up such that if there's an item in the box that you really love or like your neighbor really loves, can they keep it or is it meant that they try it and then pass it along? Although, guess one would ever know if they kept it.

Tamara: No, no. They can. They can keep it, I think the 

Stephanie: something they love, they keep it and then they put their own stuff in it that they didn't like and that goes to the next person who may like the stuff they didn't.

Tamara: I think the idea is when the bin comes to you, well, this is in my head how I think it should be, and I can further explain things in, in the group, but I think that it, it's like the bin comes to you and you can do what you want, you can try everything then keep it going. Or you can take a few things.

If, if you want the bin to keep traveling, but you feel like you need, you know, a couple months to try a product properly, like that's fine too. So long as you're kind of taking some and giving some,

Stephanie: Yeah. Take one. Leave one. I, yeah, it's, uh, it's such a cool idea and I have to give credit to my friend Amanda, who lives in, um, Kind of like Yonge and Lawrence area of Toronto. Her neighborhood did it and she noticed it and shared it with me. So thanks Amanda the suggestion. It's so cool. And Tamara, I hadn't thought of the no waste angle.

I never thought about the sustainability angle, cuz how many these have just ended up in the garbage? I never considered that. I thought about it more as curl girls need to stay together or you know, the curl community.

Tamara: There's a lot of angles. So the textile waste one, they circulate like, so there's chats for like a size extra small, small bag of clothes. There's a chat for like a medium, large bag of clothes. The bag circulates around. It can do one or two rounds through whatever, 15, 20, 30 people. Then it goes to someone at the end who's actually gonna recycle the rest of the textiles too, cuz that's the other thing.

And then, and that's in, those are in the chats and then in her textile group too, you. Just post an I.S.O. or say that you have some, Linen sheets that you don't want anymore. I think I posted something in that group. I had beautiful high-end Belgian linen sheets, but they, they had a rip and I just didn't feel like sewing it up.

And, you know, part of it was a little stained, but there was so much beautiful linen. I was like, if you're a handy dandy person and you have the time and, and wherewithal, 

Stephanie: There's million things

Tamara: super. Like linen napkins. You little cafe curtains like there was, so anyway, someone took it, right? Because you don't want like the last thing you want, even if you're cool with the for for profit model of Value Village, the last thing you want is to donate something to Value Village and then have them throw it out just cuz they see like a small deficiency.

Stephanie: Well, and I don't think they do. I always understood that they ship them off in bulk to overseas for other kinds of,

Tamara: I mean possibly, but it's just, it's really hard to know, I guess, what that end use is and that it's got a second life and that it's not going to waste and it's

Stephanie: And 

Tamara: up in a 

Stephanie: right. And the mileage that you're saving of it just staying in your neighborhood versus it being dropped off at a for-profit model and then potentially shipped across the ocean. Yeah.

Tamara: Yeah. And then and lastly, cuz this is a you know, good on so many levels. It's what you said about building community, right? So when you're sharing these things in your neighborhood, you get to know people a little bit, whether it's about hair or textiles or, I know there are some traveling kind of, I think beauty.

Beauty products and makeup that are in my neighborhood maybe that are doing this, but I think the cur that I didn't know about at that time, now I know about it, but I still thought it was beneficial to separate out the curly hair product. Anyway, thank you, Amanda, and thank you 

Stephanie: Yeah, no worries. Very cool. Very cool. I also have removed a step from my routine and I am much happier for it. I removed a moisturizing step and I'm just doing gels,

Tamara: Hmm.

Stephanie: two layers of gel. One is the Curl Keeper and one is another gel, and I got a million compliments.

desperate for haircuts, so the curls are just curls gone wild.

Tamara: Well, interesting. Like What to you?

Stephanie: so obviously there's a time saving aspect to it, which I am into, and the curls, I didn't really notice the difference. Other people noticed the difference. I didn't really notice the difference of having the moisturizer in or not in.

Tamara: mm.

Stephanie: So I guess if it's not doing anything, why do it,

Tamara: Well, yeah, because you're, if you're spending money on things that you don't need, but also, you know, I think there's something to be said with all of these different product products and application techniques. It's like, see how it goes after like a few weeks or a month of doing it, because sometimes the results are cumulative,

Stephanie: Great point,

Tamara: right?

Stephanie: great point. So maybe that's a good segue. Are we ready to let Jonathan in?

Tamara: let's let him in.

Stephanie: And before we do, we need to warn our listeners. 

Tamara: We're having a slight audio issue connecting with him, but hopefully it sounds okay. 

Stephanie: Stick around. He's worth it. 

​

Stephanie: May I just start by saying that this is a fan girl moment for me? Because you, if you listen to our back catalog, you will hear me talking about Curl Keeper, probably in every single episode.

That product changed my life 

Jonathan Torch: You know what, I'm so thrilled because it's a special product. It has such a special moment in my soul, and you know, the fact that it's evolved on its own, competing with the giants out there, it's it's just been the most rewarding thing.

Stephanie: It's incredible. It's such a great product. I've been using it forever for a couple decades and my mother, like back in the day, I'm totally starting with a tangent. Back in the day, the only brands you could get for curls were drugstore brands. There were kind of two major drugstore brands, not to be named here.

They both didn't work. And then my mother found this product and the rest is history. And like even though with this podcast we get a lot of samples 

and I always use Curl Keeper as a layer. I'm so scared not to use it.

Tamara: Stephanie gets sent hundreds of dollars worth of hair product from these other fancy brands and she's like, but I kind of just wanna use it in conjunction with the Curl Keeper. Don't you could like have to pry this, pry this Curl Keeper. They're not hopefully listening to this episode but pry this Curl Keeper out of her like cold dead 

Stephanie: hands!

Yeah, I know, and I think I have about, I have like four litres of it just in case... anyway.

Jonathan Torch: You know what? That, that warms me. It's really, it's wonderful. So that's, for me, that's what it's all about. Always has been. It has such a cool story and I never changed it from day one. 

Tamara: We can't wait to hear the details. So why don't we start, start at the beginning, like tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, and kind of how you got into just styling hair and, and hair as an industry.

Jonathan Torch: Okay. Okay. Originally I'm from South Africa and I came to Canada when I was 19. So I've been here for a very, very long time. I always wanted to be an artist. That was my, my goal is to be an artist. I'm very, very creative and I look at everything. Little obscurely. That's just my nature. And uh, when I went to high school, I actually met my wife in high school and, uh, she really pushed me to be, continued to be an artist, which is quite a, a very depressing thing when you're not making a living. And it was actually her idea to try hairdressing, which was the last thing in the world I probably ever would've thought of, but has have an open mind.

And what I loved about hairdressing is the creativity is huge. The project ends. Whenever I do a painting, it never ends. So you look at the wall and there's like 15, 16 unfinished paintings, hair dressing was like, wow. It has a start and a finish. And the same thing, which is huge for me. I also love people.

I just love people. And when you're an artist, it's a very solitude thing. Most, most artists are in the basement or an attic by themselves, and that's just, I would be very depressed. So all of a sudden being in an environment where you are with people and in an era where punk rock was coming to town.

So to be an artist watching this, these freaks come in and they want checkerboards and they want all these, these obscure avangard hair was the most amazing time in hairdressing. And it just, a switch went off where I feel, you know what? I can do this. It's not hairdressing like I thought. 

Tamara: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Torch: You know, hairdressing from what I thought was to what I found was just unbelievable and I totally embraced it.

I went to work for such a great salon cause at the time, on a cutting edge, they were in all the magazines and we did all these shows and I was at the best place at the right time.

Tamara: That's amazing.

Jonathan Torch: And it was luck. It was really luck. Cuz I could have ended up in a, an old, boring place. And then unfortunately I know myself, I would've quit and tried something else.

So I was in the right environment to learn that hairdressing is creative. So all depends on how far you can push it.

Tamara: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Torch: The thing that I, I really grasped right away is that you're dealing with people's emotions. You know, you have the power to package people hairdressing. So you have to take into account that type of power.

A lot of hairdress can abuse this privilege and you're dealing with people's self-esteem. You know this, people have to walk around and live with what you create and you the ego of a personal hairdresser and you gotta put aside and you gotta take into account that these people have to live with what you create.

And, uh, in a very avantgarde salon, you don't really take that into account . And uh, when I left that salon, I went to work in my own salon, which was in the corporate buildings of the TD Centre, the office towers. And that is a very different environment to the avant guard Salon that I was 

Tamara: like ni night and day.

Jonathan Torch: Oh my goodness.

I had a bit of a culture shock, like a really culture shock. But I learned that you know, you have to problem solve, you have to enhance people, you gotta make them look better, you gotta make them look prettier, you gotta take whatever hair they have and make it look better. So in my head, for hair dressing was all about problem solving.

I got more excited when somebody had a cow lick in the wrong place, or double crown, or that had like something excitement that this is a problem that I need to solve. And if I can do that, I'm going to give this person a sense of freedom, style freedom, where they're gonna look good despite this , you know?

And that's where I kind of positioned myself as a hairdresser. Even with doing hair colour, you know, you want colour to match the tone, the skin tone, very much how to make people look better. I, I love the beauty industry, which has changed a lot, but at was how to make people look better.

Tamara: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Torch: That's what really gets me going, you know, and then all of a sudden outta nowhere, I had customer that had extremely curly hair, like crazy curly hair, and she was very terrified to be in the salon. Like her, her salon, salon experiences were like, shocking.

So, I could feel her energy that this person is terrified. And I looked at all the options and all the training that I took and learned and everything that I knew, I knew deep down that that was not gonna work on her head. And I, I was almost like stumped. Like, well, you know, what do I do if I layer it?

I'm gonna get this. If I cut it too short, she won't be able to put in a ponytail. And a ponytail for her is like her plan A, you know, that's how she survived every day, was squeezing her head into a tiny ponytail. If I had to take that option away, her life would be just, So I, I barely did anything and it, it upset me a lot for a long time.

And I kept saying to myself, okay, if she had to walk back into the salon, what would I do differently? Cause everything that I learned train for didn't apply such curly. And, uh, again, problem solving, I had a lot of time to think about it cuz I didn't do too many curly hair. But I actually had an idea how I would approach curly hair differently. And the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. And it just made so much sense that, uh, this lady actually came back into the salon about a year later, which I was very surprised. And I was so excited to see her and my enthusiasm. I wasn't actually scared the hell outta her cause no, she's never been excited by a hairdresser and I knew exactly what, how, what I would do to her here.

I had a plan in my head. She came in and I did it and it was completely different to anything I've ever done. And it worked. It worked right away. So I was so excited to deal with this different type of hair time that was so different and so unique and I had to almost customize a cutting technique just for her because her hair was that different.

Then I realized that, oh, curly hair is different. So the next curly hair person that comes in, I can't do the same technique as her. I have to customize it, which. Make me very excited that, that, you know, when they teach you hairdressing or something, this step one, step two, step three, and everybody knows the steps and you get the end result.

But with curly hair, no, this was a different surface that you have to almost clear your mind and start from scratch. Like, what does this particular hair mean? And I was, I love that idea. I love that curly hair was so different that it gave me, excitement with to take hairdressing, 

Tamara: Right. 

Jonathan Torch: and that's how I kind of got into curly hair, being able to come up with a unique cutting system for curly hair, 

Tamara: Really. Would you say that's, so much of that excitement comes because every curl pattern is different, so it's, it's sort of just

like So many sizes, so many shapes of swirls and spirals and coils.

Jonathan Torch: I mean, how somebody's hair is in the winter is so different in the summer and the left side is so different to the right side. And, and it just, there's so much to it. And so understood that I actually, I really dove in deep, you know, I decided this is what I really wanna do.

And it was quite a challenge cause our salon wasn't geared up for curly hair. The stylists hated curly hair and they didn't want anything to do with that. Like, they really think. So I, I invented this cutting system and on this lady, And lo and behold, she was so blown away by how I changed her life, that she took it upon herself to go to, Toronto Life Magazine, she went there and next thing you know, some, writer walks into the salon with a massive hair like, oh my God. And she wants to talk to me, you know? So I said, you know, she wants to meet the curly hair expert. I said, look, say I'm a curly hair expert, but I just wanna explain to you what I do, and then you decide.

So when it comes to cutting curly hair, the thing that I do is I control the bulk. That's what it's all about with curly hair, where the bulk is and where you want it to be. So I came up with a cutting system that I can manipulate the bulk, put it in areas where you want it eliminated, where areas where you don't.

And this lady was flawed. She couldn't believe it. She had never had such a great haircut, and she went on and on and on, and she wrote a little paragraphs, tiny little paragraph in Toronto Life, which just exploded. In my salon, they didn't like curly hair, they didn't do curly hair. So I had to start training my next batch of trainees in the systems on curly hair, how to do curly hair before I taught them colour, before I taught them anything else.

I started training just on curly hair, so downtown in those office towers to specialize, it's not always a good thing. You know, you're paying massive amounts of rent. You're downstairs from hundreds of thousands of people. You don't specialize. So the salon was kind of split in two.. You got the curly hair stylists and the non curly hair stylists.

And, and that's how the, the cutting things started to evolve. with the, the, the write-ups that I got early days in Toronto life, and then Flare picked up on it and then The Star picked up on it. People were coming into the salon, but they didn't have like bulk that they think they. They just needed to learn how to manage the frizz, manage the curls.

And at the time, you know, I was looking for products that controlled frizz and, and everything was just so leafy and wet. And I mean, Michael Jackson used to put paraffin on his hair, which caught on fire. And Eddie Murphy made such a funny movie Coming to America with,

with people got off off the, the couch.

There were three grease patches. But truthfully, that was the options. That was the options. So to me, when I was doing somebody's hair and we had come from the sink and we wash the hair and we come back to the chair that look at the hair dripping wet, and we say, oh my God, if my hair looked like that, I'd be very happy.

And then it just dawned on me that when hair is wet, it's never frizzy, regardless on how frizzy somebody's hair can be, it's never frizzy when it's wet. Cause the simple concept is that the open cuticles are filled with water. So it's almost like a common sense thing that in order to have a hundred percent fresh, free hair, keep it wet.

Tamara: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Torch: That's when it dawned on me to make a product that duplicates water. Simple. Make it clean. Get rid of all the stuff, all the oils, all the waxs, all the silicons, every single thing. Make it as clean, as simple as water, which sounds easy, but that's another eight years.

Tamara: Oh, wow.

Jonathan Torch: But, you know, at, at the time it was, it was a hobby.

You know, I was watching TV and, and I saw, uh, Mac cosmetics came out and there was a, a makeup artist that wanted to make a lipstick. They didn't reflect lights. When they take pictures. They needed a stack so they don't make that, it doesn't exist. So he went to the library and he learned how to make lipstick.

And I thought, okay, let's try. And sure enough, I went to the library and there's, there's recipes, how I make everything. It's unbelievable. At the library you can make every single type of colour you can make and lipstick you can make. And it's amazing. So I thought, all I got nothing to lose, I'll try make my own. And it took forever. Really did. And it was painstaking then, 

Tamara: home. You did this at home, like in your kitchen?

Jonathan Torch: in the kitchen. Stir it up, stir it up, and of course unsuccessful. Cause I have no idea what I'm doing. And I didn't know what to put into the formula, but I definitely knew what not to use. 

And what, what? I went backwards. I went to, it's a process of elimination.

Getting rid of silicone, getting rid of anything oily, anything greasy, anything that repels water. Everything that meets the barrier. But the whole industry is going into these oils and these waxes, and these sounds like, what am I missing? What am I missing? You 

know? But over time, and I really had no pressure how long this has to be, and even if it just pan out in the meantime, I was using tons of mousse and tons of gels and all these other sticky, greasy products like everyone else.

And then slowly, the product started to work, I was able to duplicate the same control that water has and I would go home and make up a whole batch and go to work and take it and It was so exciting. I was using all my clients, uh, hair as, as testers and 

Stephanie: That's awesome.

Jonathan Torch: it was so cool.

It was so fun. I had no idea what called the stuff, you know, we called it

Stephanie: The stuff. 

Tamara: Did you tell them? Did they Did they know? Uh, I just mixed this up in my kitchen, but I'm really excited about it. I

think it's gonna work.

Jonathan Torch: Clients were very, very, very excited. Which is a problem because when a form, when you make a formula, you really need truthful feedback. And when people know you, they really like you. They want this to work. So you might have 10 people to say it's fantastic. It's great. And then you get 10 strangers and they go, that sucks.

It's terrible. That's awful. So, so you gotta be a little bit careful on, uh, feedback from, from your clients. Even though I, I really develop product on my clients and, uh, they terrific. And some tell me the honest truth and otherwise I actually find complete strangers that aren't afraid to hurt my feelings,

Tamara: Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: that you have real time feedback from your salon. It's so smart. 

Is that what you do with your whole line?

Jonathan Torch: that's exactly what I do with every product, with every ingredient. I'm very organized. I know who I give this to. I know what their test is. And I play and I play and I play with the formula until it's perfect. People were loving it. Uh, we started to sell it without even having a label on the bottle, you know? And how much can I make? I can only make, uh, six at a time.

Stephanie: As much as fits in your pasta pot,

Jonathan Torch: You really, it, it's, uh, it's, it was very difficult. And then I had to find models and pour it. And

Stephanie: Yeah.

Jonathan Torch: it's part of the process, you know, part of the growing pains. And then one day it was perfect. It was actually perfect. Curl Keeper was exactly what I wanted us to do. Learning how to put it on is, is the challenge which we still face.

And I think every manufacturer out there faces the same issue is how do you use the product? You know, when I first saw it and I make the products and the instructions are about this long, but the bottle only allows you to use this much space. You only allow two lines to explain a really technical, difficult process.

And I know that every manufacturer has a problem, you know, so for curly hair, you have massive amounts of hair. You gotta take advantage of the water that's in the hair. You gotta don't towel dry your hair too much. Use the water in the hair to help spread the product evenly roots to end. It is designed that you can use a lot.

Now, most people don't use a lot, most people use a little bit cuz they're so used to things being sticky and greasy. So that was something that we've had to learn. How do you, how do you use it? How much do you do? So that, that's a big learning curve that we are continuously having. 

Tamara: But I think people in the, at least now, there's so many kind of communities where people are sharing their experiences more so than in the past. So when we're trying, you know, trying

new things, you can hear from other,

people.

Jonathan Torch: yeah. When I first began, I stumbled on this website, naturallycurly.com. And they had a forum. And I must tell you, I spent every night on this forum learning. That's where I probably learned how to use a computer and I would tap and talk to people, curly hair and everything from them.

Really honestly, these are genuine, honest curlies that have struggled their whole life and their stories are just unbelievable. And I don't think there's ever been a forum of straight hair people, but the curly community is amazing. And eventually, that's why I found a lot of strangers test my product because they were honest. They gave honest feedback and I learned a lot about curly hair from that group. 

And then of course, the, television show Friends came in, which introduced flat. So that just does not make curly hair popular. So I had to work even harder trying to, uh, work with curly hair during that era. And, uh, then of course, like all things, you know, uh, the Friends show came to and end and there was Sarah Jessica Parker 

Tamara: Yay. Yes.

Jonathan Torch: finally curly hair gonna come and

Tamara: Yes.

I feel like you just summed up sort of being in my late teens and early twenties, because I definitely was flatter and flatter and flatter, and then a bit with Sex in the City. I think that was pivotal

for me to like, let's try it and let's try some, my texture's not too different from Sarah Jessica Parker in that, and let's try some of her hairstyles and let's 

Jonathan Torch: That's right. Even if it doesn't work, you still keep trying, you know? It's like it didn't work, but you keep trying. That's the thing with curly hair,, it's not gonna work the first time. It's kind of like learning a new instrument, you

Stephanie: Every time, though, every single time, every time you wash your hair, it's like relearning the instrument.

Tamara: Totally.

Jonathan Torch: You, you know what I always say? Curly hair people cannot be control freak. Impossible.

Stephanie: totally.

Jonathan Torch: Straight

Tamara: can try

Jonathan Torch: in the same curly. You cannot be a control freak. 

Stephanie: Oh, it's so true. It's so true. So Curl Keeper was a huge hit. And

you have a massive 

Jonathan Torch: It, it was a huge hit for me. Like getting, getting a product to market, competing with the Giants is another whole story. But what I felt is when people tried, they loved it. They spoke about it. There was this energy building that kept me going, you know, the difference is that it worked. Now with the curly hair world, in the straight hair world, it's very interesting because success or failure for straight hair is all about your ability to style it. How good are you with the round brush? But for curly hair, success or failure totally depends on the performance of a product.

You know, you can, you put it on, you do deal prep, you squish ish, squish, put it on the clips, whatever, and then you wait. You wait. If the product works, you have success. If it doesn't, uh, it's gonna be this, then you might have to jump back in the shower and redo it because you're relying on a product. So the performance of a product, clearly here is a tool. There's not, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, you know, it has to work. The challenge is how we, how we put it on or you putting enough on or you putting it right or you touching it too much. You gotta learn when to touch it, when you leave it, all these tiny details. But a great hair day is when the products are working and that's where I think Curl Keeper kind of connected because it was my first product and it dealt with frizz control and that is the key with curly hair is all about frizz, know, whether it's a, a slight wave or a tight kinky.

Here it's all about controlling frizz. So that's the story.

Stephanie: Love it.